 | 9 Mar 10 |
Several weeks ago, I read a review for a book I loved. I don’t know about you, but I tend to look for reviews on a title after I’ve read a book, seeking validation for my own reaction to a story. I found a write-up on a busy and respected romance review blog, known to be fair and thorough, and often tough. The grade was slightly above average, and I read with interest what the reviewer had to say.
By the end of the review, I was shaking my head, stunned and confused. This reviewer pretty much hated the heroine of the book, calling her plucky (as in obnoxious, not plucky as in brimming with joie de vivre), spunky (adding flat-out that she “hated spunk”), annoying, smug, stupid, and extreme. However, she did applaud the heroine for one single act: falling into bed with the hero who is a selfish, self-indulgent prick. (Her precise characterization, not mine.) Because, as this reviewer essentially said, it’s okay to make a stupid decision when the decision is that smokin’ hot.
Huh?
That wasn’t my reaction to the book at all, but honestly, that’s not my point. The review got me thinking…is there a double standard in romance? Do we cut the edgy, thoughtless, selfish, indulgent bad boy a lot of slack because he’s sexy as sin, hung like a horse, and all alpha all the time? And are we just a tad tougher on our heroines, slamming the sassy, single-minded, sexually uninhibited heroine as a bitch-slut, scoffing at her spirit by calling her “plucky” as opposed to “gutsy?” I do think romance readers (and in this case, I’m counting myself as a reader not a writer) are a little lenient with our boys and stricter with our girls. I’ve never had a reviewer or reader give me a grief for writing a hero who was too decisive, too in charge, too inflexible, or too daring. I have had my more assertive heroines (Vanessa Porter of Then You Hide, I’m talking to you!) dinged for being too mouthy, too opinionated, too stubborn, and too reckless. Yet, what is the difference except semantics and gender?
I may be wrong, but I think we’re less forgiving of our heroines, and that begs the question of why. Is it because, as some have suggested, we put ourselves in their shoes and we are our harshest critics? Is it because we envy that heroine’s good fortune to have a whole book and happy ever after with a guy who turns our legs to Jell-O and our brains to mush, and he can cook well, shoot straight, and make perfect babies? Is it because we don’t really care about the heroines, we read for the heroes? Or is it because we understand women better than we understand men, we know our own nuances and flaws, our potential and our pitfalls, and when we see them reflected in a character, we want to pick them apart in hopes of conquering our own weaknesses?
I don’t know. I do know that most writers tell me they struggle more with the heroine than the hero, and I’m firmly in that camp. In romantic suspense in particular, it’s damn near impossible to write a man who’s “too alpha” — assuming, of course, he does no harm to the heroine beyond weakening her knees and stealing her heart. Yet, I walk a daily tightrope trying to develop a woman who is strong without being a bitch, courageous without being TSTL, sexual without being a slut, and good enough to be worthy of a fabulous hero, yet not too flawless that she can’t be real.
So, lets talk about it. Readers, do you find yourself more critical of the heroine and more tolerant of the hero’s flaws? Writers, which character is harder to write, and why? And, everyone, do you think we have a double standard in judging the characters in romance? If so, why?
© 2010, Roxanne St. Claire. All rights reserved.
Roxanne St. Claire is a New York Times bestselling, RITA-Award winning author of nearly thirty novels of romance and suspense. The author of two popular romantic suspense series, The Bullet Catchers and The Guardian Angelinos, Roxanne is hard at work on new books for 2012, which will include the launch of a contemporary series, Barefoot Bay, and her first young adult novel, Don't You Wish, and a brand new stand-alone romantic suspense, Space in His Heart. A five-time RITA nominee, Roxanne's books have won the National Readers Choice Award, the Daphne Du Maurier Award, the Maggie Award, the Booksellers Best, the Book Buyers Best, The HOLT Medallion, multiple Awards of Excellence, and Borders "Top Pick"" for Romance in 2007. She lives in Florida with her husband, two teenagers, and one impossibly cute Australian Terrier named Pepper.
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I notice in reviews that sometimes the female gets …eh, judged more harshly by some.
Oh, I love writing both-the story won’t work for me without both. But the last question? I really don’t know…because, like I said, for me the story won’t work. I’ve dumped books for a lousy hero, a lousy heroine. Both.
by Shiloh Walker March 9th, 2010 at 8:29 amDumping a lousy character is a great feeling, isn’t it? That’s a blog post in and of itself!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:42 amRocki, coming at this from the writing end of the spectrum – I find I’m getting much more careful about writing my heroines because of the exact point you make. I can write heroes who have done all SORTS of heinous things and readers won’t even blink – my heroines, however, seem to fall under much greater scruntiny. It never fails to surprise me since I always think it should be the other way around. In my heroes, I’m actually TRYING to create a very flawed character who needs to be forgiven or otherwise redeemed – but I kind of feel like they can get away with pretty much anything at this point ; )
by Toni Blake March 9th, 2010 at 8:35 amI think you straddle the fence beautifully, Toni, with the right balance of flaw and perfection that I love your characters completely.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:44 amBless you, my friend : )
by Toni Blake March 9th, 2010 at 4:25 pmThere absolutely is a double standard, and it’s not just in romance. Readers — especially female readers — are WAY harder on female characters than on male characters.
I remember several years ago, before I had sold a book, talking to a bestselling friend who was giving me advice on one of my manuscripts. She told me something that I never forgot (though I have found myself unable to incorporate this advice into my own books, which might explain why I am not a bestselling author):
She said that her readers will forgive her heroes anything. ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING. They can be cruel and horrible, and the readers will forgive them. But the heroines must be flawless. ANy weakness, any bad decisions, any mistakes, and the readers will HATE the heroines forever.
This writer (a romance writer) theorized that the reason behind this is because her female readers were putting themselves in the place of the heroines, and they wanted to believe they were good people. If they believed that the heroines were “worse” people than they themselves, they would not think they were worthy of the hero.
However, this double standard does not only exist in romance. In fact, it’s something that a bunch of YA writers and I have been talking about a lot lately. I posted on this exact topic. So did Sarah Rees Brennan and Justine Larbalestier.
I think it goes back to a lot of the same issues that female professionals or politicians see. Not only must they be brilliant at their jobs, but they also have to hate great hair/bodies/fashion sense.
There is DEFINITELY a double-standard.
by Diana Peterfreund March 9th, 2010 at 8:57 amThanks for the links to those blog posts, Diana, great perspective on the subject from the standpoint of another genre.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:47 amExcellent post, Rocki. I do work harder on the heroine. I firmly believe that the heroine is viewed very differently from the hero when it comes to the same actions. It’s far more difficult to make a hard edged heroine sympathetic.
by Debra webb March 9th, 2010 at 8:59 amEvery time I write a really hard edged heroine, I follow up with one that’s softer. But, dang, I have more fun with the edgy chicks – in fiction and in real life.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:48 amThis is a topic I’ve seen discussed a lot lately, and I think it’s very true. We do forgive the heroes much more than the heroines. A hero can walk into a no win situation and be called a hero for risking his life. A heroine can walk into a no win situation and be called TSTL for doing so. Sometimes as a writer we can’t win for putting our heroines in those situations.
Is it because we’re willing to accept more risk, more flaws, more mistakes from our heroes than we are from our heroines? I don’t know. Do we want to love the hero more than we want to love the heroine? You pose a lot of really good questions.
Great post, Rocki!
by Jaci Burton March 9th, 2010 at 9:06 amThis. So this. WHY is it okay for him to go down the stairs into the basement (armed) and not okay for her to go down the stairs into the basement (also armed)? If the action is well-motivated, it shouldn’t matter. (Someone is dying down there!!) Yes, totally agree.
And can I just say CONGRATULATIONS on your bestseller status, my friend!!!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:51 amThank you babe!
by Jaci Burton March 9th, 2010 at 11:42 amAgreed – that totally gets to the heart of the matter and makes the point beautifully : )
by Toni Blake March 9th, 2010 at 4:24 pmRocki, I quit reading romance novels thirty years ago for this very reason. The men were cookie-cutter Alphas who were emotional douchebags and the heroines were not only TSTL but came off as simpering prom queens. I came back to the genre reluctantly and only after an editor told me I was actually writing romantic suspense. (Then I discovered paranormal! *happy dancing*)
When I read, I want “REAL.” Yeah, yeah. I’m in a huge minority. I want the characters to at least pretend that I might run into them at the corner diner. I want them flawed so they can be redeemed, and yeah, I guess they need to be pretty, but not too pretty. I want them smart and clever and I want her just as capable of rescuing the hero as he is of rescuing her. I want them to be partners because…gee, that’s the way it should be (and is in my real world.) Frankly, I don’t want Mary Sue’s. I quit reading a popular author over that very issue. And I devour another popular author’s new books in a particular series because her H/H aren’t perfect but they manage to find their way through a rather messy life together. Thirty-one books and counting.
As a writer, I’ll probably never be best-selling either since I think plucky and spunky are good things. In my current WIP, the heroine has a mouth that could make a sailor blush and the hero calls her on her cussing constantly–even though he’s the Alpha hero bad boy.
FYI? I love your Lucy Sharpe and Vanessa rocks! I want to take her out for a beer! No wimpy appletinis for her.
Great topic and I’ll definitely be checking back today to see the comments.
by Silver James March 9th, 2010 at 9:21 amAnd we’re so glad you’re back to romance, Silver! I do prefer to write a really strong female lead, but know that there could be a price to pay come amazon review time.
And there’s a place in the world for an appletini, and beer. I happen to love both! Let’s have some in Nashville, kay?
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:54 amYou’re on, Rocki! Though Nashville in July lends itself to frozen Margaritas. Mmmmmm!
by Silver James March 9th, 2010 at 10:50 amI don’t think the double standard is just in romance.
It’s important to me as a reader and writer that any behavior be motivated, not just convenient to the plot. As a writer, I’m totally stalled until I understand the motivations. As a reader, I want to enjoy spending time with the characters throughout the book, not just while they’re having sex. So if either the hero or the heroine are jerks, there’d better be a good reason! (And it better be hinted at early enough that I don’t quit reading.)
by Ann Marie March 9th, 2010 at 9:26 amExcellent point, Ann Marie. Motivation is everything and it does need to be presented early enough in the book so that the characters are sympathetic. Without a backstory dump, lol! Yet another blog topic!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:55 amI think overall it definitely exists. I mean think about celebrities. WHO are the hardest on the women? OTHER WOMEN. Women in general bitch moan and groan about the “image” hollywood puts out of uber skinny perfectly made up and coiffed women. Yet who are the people who buy magazines like Us, The National Enquirer, People, Ok, and so on? It’s mostly women. And if there’s a female celeb on it without make up or who’s body ISN’T perfectly airbrushed … well whip out the catty comments ladies.
For me, I LOVE a strong female lead. And yes I, for the most part, love a female character who wears the name Bitch with pride. As a reviewer I praise these characters who have their own well developed sense of self, who know what they want, aren’t affraid to go after it and revel in their own sexuality. EVERY woman deserves a hero. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
I will admit that I did criticize, lightly, one female character for being TOO much of a bitch, once. I’m all for standing up for yourself and being strong and doing what needs to be done. But I’m NOT all for COMPLETELY ignoring EVERYONE else’s feelings, we’re talking NO give and NO compassion whatsoever. I won’t tolerate that in a hero and I won’t tolerate that in a heroine either.
by Angi C March 9th, 2010 at 9:39 amAgreed. I’m just questioning the parity of alpha action = stud and gutsy heroine = TSTL. I don’t want to write a “bitch” heroine anymore than I want to write an “asshole” hero. But I think alpha assholes get more slack than bitchy babes.
Don’t start me on the airbrushing. Did you watch the Oscars? Is there not a single female of any age with a line on her forehead in Hollywood?
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 9:59 amUnfortunately it’s something that hasn’t been fully eradicated from our thought processes yet. A guy can sleep with a 100 women and he’s a stud. A woman sleeps with 100 men and she’s a slut and a whore and unworthy of anything but disgust. It’s true in society and unfortunately for many it carries over into what they read and how they think of the characters. Women are held to a higher standard than men.
I think it has to do with us being the ones to give birth and the whole “mother” role and how people DO NOT want to EVER picture their mother as a sexual being. At least that’s part of it. I think the other part is simply the gender roles people have had taught to them for centuries now.
As for the oscars … neil patrick harris sang it best “no botox without all of you” LOL I mean I’m sure that for some of those beautiful people they simply got lucky with REALLY good genes. But botox and plastic surgery rule the town in hollywood
by Angi C March 9th, 2010 at 10:14 amWow, I’d never thought of it this way, but you’re right–I think we give jerk heroes way too much slack and pick on strong-minded heroines. Why? I think you’re right: we relate more to the heroine and also are jealous of her.
I don’t seem to have this problem in my reviews (they criticize me for other things!) and then again, I’ve never had a problem with writing my heroines. My heroes are always harder for me. My books tend to focus more on the heroine as well–she’s the character who drives most of the story. In fact, I can’t think of a book where I didn’t have my heroine figured out first. Most of my books even start in her POV.
Hmm. Lots of food for thought here! Great post!
by Allison Brennan March 9th, 2010 at 9:55 amWhat’s that saying about Art mirroring and echoing Life?
I hate to say it, but we women do this to each other on a daily basis, not just to fictional characters or just to celebrities, and we also forgive men for being ridiculous to us in life, too, especially if they look pretty. Even the greatest feminist will cut a guy slack every now and then, even when she doesn’t MEAN to. He’s just a guy, he can’t help himself, right?
But take a look at television and you’ll see it there too: House is a great example of an Alpha-Asshole who is apparently so charming his series is in season four. And his heroine just spent an entire episode being called a bitch for doing her job as director of the hospital. (I love House, too, I’m not immune to the call of the Alpha!)
I would suggest that it is perhaps instinctive for women to appreciate the Alpha male. Also, by that same logic, perhaps the problem we have with strong Heroines is that they are Competition for the best protection/food supply. If they simper, we know we can elbow them out of the way and take over!
by Amalia T. March 9th, 2010 at 10:20 amThat last reply (or the one under it, am confused blonde) was meant for Allison B. This one for Amalia T. YES on House. I agree one thousand percent!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 10:45 amAnd I’m just the opposite, Allison. I always know my hero first and foremost, but wrestle with the heroine to get her right. Except the really tough ones. I mentioned Vanessa who did take a lot of grief for her foul mouth (especially from the hero), but, whoa, I had a blast writing a woman who said “Fuck a duck!” when she lost her iPhone.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 10:44 amGreat post, Rocki, and oh, so true!
I’ve definitely noticed that many readers are much, much less tolerant of profanity coming from heroines than heroes. Apparently, they’re supposed to be ladylike, regardless of the extremity of the situation. And charitably inclined toward “taming” and redeeming the most flawed heroes.
by Colleen Thompson March 9th, 2010 at 10:09 amThe profanity issue is a big one. I had an editor who said “hero can drop F-bombs, never the heroine.” That would be a fu&%ing double standard.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 4:15 pmGreat blog, Rocki!
I do think there’s a double standard. I think it mirrors life too. No matter how far we’ve come there’s a double standard in life. In romance books, it’s doubly hard to find the perfect balance for the heroine. The hero can get away with just about anything. Heroine? Not so much. Tightrope walk. Wouldn’t it be nice if this awareness you’ve brought up here, helped shift this?
Great post!
by Marian Pearson Stevens March 9th, 2010 at 10:12 amMarian, it would be nice, but I’m not the first or only person to notice, I think. Also, the response is deeply ingrained, as so many others have pointed out.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 10:46 amGuess I fall into this camp too, though on the opposite end. Being a male writer, I tend to be less forgiving of the hero and far more lenient with the heroine. She can be all kinds of flawed but as long as she’s coming from the right place, it’s all good. The hero on the other hand, better not be the self-indulgent, alpha prick, because no heroine of mine is going to fall for that no matter how hot he is. In my debut (April ’11) they’re both flawed, completely unsure of the other, and not really feeling like they deserve to have “the good one” come their way at all. It’s a series however, so I have the luxury of longer development, and it is much more urban-fantasy/suspense than romantic suspense, so perhaps I have the room to operate outside of this double-standard scenario. At least I hope I do, or readers are likely to find their expectations are not being met.
by jim duncan March 9th, 2010 at 10:23 amCongrats on your debut, Jim, and thanks for the comment from the male perspective. Very interesting. Will be fun to see how your series is received – keep us posted!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 10:48 amThis is a great post. And so true for me. I have much more trouble writing the heroine. She gives me trouble every time. I don’t know why it is, but it doesn’t matter who she is, she’s trouble. This makes it hard, because she’s always strong and carries most of the load.
by Carol Kilgore March 9th, 2010 at 10:32 amOh, Rocki, I could go on and on about this topic for days.
From a mystery writer’s perspective, where my series are focused on the main character and not the 50/50 split between mystery and romance…I think I’ve got it worse. I’m not complaining, mind you, but I’ve been taken to task many many times on the language my female characters use. The fact they drink. The fact they like sex. The fact they know how to use guns. The fact they aren’t afraid to literally knock a man on his assk. The fact they aren’t Sunday School teachers. The fact they are unapologetic about the above facts.
I write hard ass female characters. No apologizes. But you want to know who expects me to apologize for the language, drinking, sexual appetites, and violent tendencies of my flawed female characters?
Women. NEVER men. Let me repeat that. I’ve NEVER had a man approach me and say, “Gee, I really liked the book, but I wish your character wouldn’t swear so much. Or drink so much. Or pistol whip people so much.”
Toni Causey and I were on a panel at Left Coast Crime together a few years back, all female panelists, all writing tough female characters. One audience member asked what we did as authors specifically to “soften” our female characters. I grabbed the microphone to answer first because I have a definite opinion Why is this question asked of FEMALE authors writing FEMALE characters? Are they asking Lee Child what HE does to soften Jack Reacher?
No.
Double standard.
by Lori Armstrong March 9th, 2010 at 10:34 amOkay, I spewed Diet Coke at the character who “pistol whips too much.” But seriously, what a question. Sadly, if Lee were Leigh and Jack were Jackie – the softening would occur.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 10:50 amYOU ARE SO RIGHT LORI!!!!
by Allison Brennan March 9th, 2010 at 1:56 pmThey say timing is everything and just yesterday I was pondering the feedback I’d received on the manuscript I sent to Harl/Sil. The editor commented on the characterization being inconsistent and my pondering was specifically about the heroine. I’m going to take all this into consideration and see if I’ve made her TSTL at points and a ball-buster at others. She’s a widow who wants to have a baby, so the all-over-the-place emotions are what happen in real life, but I’m beginning to see from all the comments that some readers don’t necessarily want to see real life.
by Marilyn March 9th, 2010 at 10:56 amThat’s why we call it FICTION and not REAL LIFE. But listen to those critiques, Marilyn, because consistency in characterization is so important, and once you have it, readers do connect more with a character.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 11:49 amI agree – there is absolutely a double standard. I’m not a writer, strictly a reader. I’ve noted several times in my reviews how much harder I am on heroines than heroes. Even aware of it, I continue to be that way. I hate to say it, but I wonder if this is partly just the nature of women? To love and accept a man, and to criticize other women? When you pass a beautiful, gorgeous woman on the street, many women look at her and say, what? “Bitch”. “I hate her.” Without even knowing her. I’m guilty of this, even though I always say it in jest.
I think that many women dislike those more accomplished than themselves, those more beautiful than themselves. Because it makes us feel somehow inferior. We’re supposed to be able to do it all, aren’t we? Well if I can’t do it all, then I’m sure going to criticize the woman who CAN do it all when she does something wrong. And as a society, I think we tend to look down on those who can’t seem to accomplish what we have through hard work and dedication.
I find I prefer those heroines that are like myself – a little brash, pretty confident (except in those situations where I’m not, heh), not reliant on the hero for everything, but yet totally dependent on him at the same time. One who isn’t afraid of her sexuality and enjoys sex, but isn’t promiscuous. One who handles her job with confidence and is successful, whether she works in a high powered job in a skyscraper or is a SAHM.
Yeah, I’m not critical much, right? I don’t ask for a lot, do I? On the other hand, as long as the hero isn’t an asshole, or doesn’t hurt the heroine physically or continually emotionally, I’m usually all about him.
Uh, yeah. I’d call that a double standard.
by Lori March 9th, 2010 at 11:30 amAnd you’re honest! Thanks for that pure reader perspective, Lori. It’s a difficult balance, but when a writer nails it, we readers love it.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 11:51 amSuch a thoughtful post on a really provocative topic, Rocki. Well done! I’ve never considered how frustrating it must before you romantic suspense writers–the nakedness of that brave hero vs TSTL heroine double standard is pretty hard to ignore.
by Louisa Edwards March 9th, 2010 at 11:49 amAny kind of nakedness is hard to ignore.
Thanks – I definitely think the dilemma is cross genre and, from some of the comments, cross fiction.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 11:52 amI DON’T read reviews for books or movies. I’ll decide if I like something or not. I really don’t care if some reviewer I don’t know likes it or not. That’s just me.
In well written romance the hero ALWAYS has redeeming qualities. I do think that some of the hero’s “unpleasant qualities” do kinda get swept under the rug but God forbid she had any unpleasantness. She has to be strong, fair, kind, selfless, gorgeous, in other words perfect. That’s why it is fiction.
by HollyD March 9th, 2010 at 12:26 pmI suppose I’m usually harder on heroes than heroines. Of course I’d be…
It’s much more rare for a heroine to truly annoy me than a hero. I guess it’s because the heroine doesn’t have to be like me for me to like her. I don’t mind flawed, messed up women, with some weakness and vulnerability. But, a hero??? He better be damn well perfect for me. I’m not a very tolerant person in general. I’m easily annoyed, easily irritated…
I don’t generally mind dark heroines, but I don’t like dark heroes much.
Maybe I don’t make much sense, I don’t know. I’m sick. If this sounds too stupid, feel free to disregard it all…
by Barbie March 9th, 2010 at 12:44 pmDidn’t know you were sick! Get better, kiddo. xo
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 1:24 pmI’m with you Barbie! Dark heroines are far more interesting to me as a writer than dark heroes.
Ditto what Rocki said–get well!
by Allison Brennan March 9th, 2010 at 1:59 pmSuch a great post! It’s kind of sad that romance writers not only have to fight for the legitimacy of their genre, but also the realism of their heroines.
I wonder if this will ever change? Maybe the increasingly tough heroines featured in paranormal romance and urban fantasy will help shift the tide?
by Kristen Painter March 9th, 2010 at 1:06 pmThen you got your work cut out for you, Kristen! I doubt it will change completely, but some genres, like UF, might be a little easier on this subject.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 1:25 pmI’ve had mostly positive response to my heroine, Stella – who killed her husband only after he abused her for 30 years, and who stops other abusers with intimidation and threats and beatings but does not kill them. I have had a couple of readers say they couldn’t get into the book because they would never, ever act as stella does, that she takes it too far into violence. I found myself wondering if men get that kind of feedback. Vengeful, murderous rages are often celebrated when it’s a man dishing out the hurt. I don’t for sure it’s a double standard at work…maybe it’s just a matter of women readers wanting to identify more closely with heroines that allows them to give men more latitude.
or maybe it really is a double standard.
by sophie littlefield March 9th, 2010 at 1:44 pmThere is, which is why many female thriller authors write under a gender neutral pen name. It’s hard to break out. Read some of Tess Gerritsen’s blog posts on her personal blog, and some of the slams she got–FROM WOMEN!!!!–when one of her books was nominated for an Edgar. Why was she slammed? Because she used to write “romance.” It had NOTHING to do with the quality of the book that was nominated–which was my FAVORITE of all her books.
Women slam women. I’m sure there’s a whole psychology department working on this.
by Allison Brennan March 9th, 2010 at 1:58 pmI have a feeling I will hear more about this in the future. I am still pretty much a new kid on the block but I HAVE noticed women slamming and undermining each other since I started paying attention. I swore I would not do that!! Sometimes I bitch and complain but I try to do it in private. There are authors whose books I don’t love…some which even offend me…but I keep it to myself because I don’t think it’s my place to judge where a writer or her readers wish to go – any more than it’s their place to judge how dark or light, or serious or silly, or complex or straightforward my own books are…
thank you for this discussion!!
by sophie littlefield March 9th, 2010 at 2:54 pmYou most certainly write the extreme heroine, Sophie, and probably get this reaction even more than those of us who don’t. But your heroine’s motivation is strong – he had it comin’, I’d say.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 2:02 pmhee hee hee
Well, I certainly enjoyed giving her a wonderful man to fall for, after all the abuse she put up with.
by sophie littlefield March 9th, 2010 at 2:55 pmNext time someone tells you they would never ever … ask ‘em if they’ve been abused, and for a long period of time. Anyone can say “I’d never” when they’ve never been faced with the choice or the problem. It’s much harder to say “I’d never” if you’ve actually LIVED through that kind of thing.
Course this is coming from the woman whose grandmother told her grandfather, when he raised his hand to hit her, “Go ahead … but I wouldn’t fall asleep in this house if I were you”
I have no idea where my love for strong women comes from 
by Angi C March 9th, 2010 at 3:15 pmLove this post! I think this issue is particularly prevalent with romantic suspense books. I submitted a proposal once for a strong female series character and was told she had to wrap up her story in one book because we needed a HEA with one hero. Then she was allowed to have cameos in later books in that series. It was the first time I really noticed this double standard… It’s fine for Jack Reacher, James Bond, etc… to have a different woman in every story, but if a woman has a different man in each story, she’s a slut. So the author either has to put her with one guy and drag it out forever (Tempe Brennan) or give her a love triangle (Stephanie Plum). Then you have the whole problem of her coming off as being a doormat or indecisive because the relationship doesn’t move forward. It’s quite a juggling act.
As for the appearance stuff, my pet peeves are heroines AND heroes who look perfect.
by Laura Griffin March 9th, 2010 at 1:56 pmLOL, don’t read my books then, Laura. My characters are pretty amazing looking!
And, hey, that proposal might sell yet. You never know!
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 2:04 pmI dump a series as soon as I figure out that it is turning into a “love triangle.” I just don’t buy the idea that a woman doesn’t know which guy she wants to be with. I had never really connected it to the fact that the “Kiss the Captain and you die” option (Star Trek, James Bond, Travis McGee, etc.) isn’t really available for heroines. But it still puts the heroine in the TSTL category.
by Mary Arrr March 9th, 2010 at 8:42 pmTrust me, it’s VERY easy to not know which man you want to be with when you’re looking at two equally great guys.
Been There, Done That. And almost 20 years later I sometimes still wonder if I made the right choice.
by Angi C March 9th, 2010 at 9:25 pmThe female is always judge harder in all walks of life, even in realy life. I know its not right but it has always been that way. I love for both the hero and heroine to have flaws because it sticks true to real life.
by Quilt Lady March 9th, 2010 at 2:20 pmSex. Sex. Sex. LOL! Why oh why can a hero have 800 conquests in his past but the female has had only 1 or 2. (And of course they were the worst lovers imaginable!)
Or why is the hero the hottest thing on the earth but the heroine is not beautiful but attractive in her own way?
And yep! Why is the hero brave but the heroine is TSTL for the same actions?
I certainly think that there is a double standard. I don’t get any of it but I still read it, like it and ask for more of it! LOL!
I can only echo what so many have already said about women being the worst critics of other women. Think about the constant argument of Working vs. SAH moms. These arguments get so vicious! And instead of just agreeing to disagree or finding some common ground, the women have to beat each other down.
Unfortunately, I think because women have had to fight for so much for so long, that we no longer see other women as comrades in our fight but as enemies that are in our way. And in my opinion, this fracture has helped perpetuate the double standard.
Did that make any sense?
by Aly March 9th, 2010 at 3:01 pmPerfect sense, Aly. Especially about the sexual history. I’m totally guilty of structuring backstory without a thought to the legions of women banged by the hot hero, but a passing nod to the very few (often incompetent, at least once they’ve had MY guy) lovers the heroine has had. I don’t do virgins (I did one, and she didn’t know – long story, actually a whole book!) but my heroines will always have a “light” sexual history. Not that I fear the reviews, but I do want readers to connect to the female protag and I want that character to be sympathetic.
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 3:06 pmI am not too critical of my own heroines, but anyone you reads my stuff is. I am not brave, outspoken, or daring, so making my heroines be so I may go a little overboard, but I don’t think so. I think women are more critical of other women, even fictional ones. LOL
by Jill James March 9th, 2010 at 3:13 pmNone of us are brave and outspoken as our heroines, I don’t think. Nor are any men as sexy, smart, sensitive, or studly as heroes. That’s why we read, right?
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 6:12 pmLMAO. Um… I can’t necessarily call myself brave, but I’m probably as outspoken as some of my heroines, at least. I’ve got a big mouth.
My problem is I often don’t temper my outspokenness with…tact. ;o)
I try to make my heroines smarter than I am-try to make them handle things better than I would.
by Shiloh Walker March 9th, 2010 at 9:52 pm[...] Is There A Double Standard In Romance? | Murder She Writes [...]
by Starting Over Win Your Love Back | Unbreak My Heart March 9th, 2010 at 3:33 pmMen and women are different and our reactions to them are different. I found this an interesting post and the comments even more so. Great idea.
by Linda Rader March 9th, 2010 at 4:02 pmOf course there is a double standard in romance. Life is a double standard. My own household has double standards. I have two girls and two boys. My girls were sent off to the convent until they were of age to safely wed a noble lord, whilst my rapscallion boys played the field, and continue to do so.
by Karin Tabke March 9th, 2010 at 6:07 pmIs somebody writing historicals again? xo
by Roxanne St. Claire March 9th, 2010 at 6:10 pmThis is quite an interesting blog Roxanne. As someone who reviews I will take special notice of this issue into the future. Thanks for such a well written and thoughtful blog.
Susan
by Susan R Stoltz March 9th, 2010 at 6:58 pmYes, there is a double standard, but it doesn’t have to be. If you keep writing the heroes/heroines as such then people will continue to view it as the norm. Personally, I love to see an “original” heroin, however she maybe and an “original” hero. The relationship and chemistry between the 2 will determine my acceptance for them.
by katherine March 9th, 2010 at 8:27 pmYou see the same pattern in the “I hate working for a woman boss” complaint that you hear mostly from women. I have a co-worker who goes on and on about women bosses. Now it’s true that her former boss (a woman) was no picnic to work for, but her current, male, boss is way, way worse. He says publicly berates and humiliates her, expects her to turn in borderline fraudulent expense reports for him, etc., etc. But she hasn’t changed her tune – “women bosses” are the difficult ones. Yeah, right.
I think some of it is the “authoritarian follower” personality type shining through.
From “Right Wing Authoritarianism”
Although most of the internet info on the authoritarian personality highlights the American political scene, I find it to be universal – it’s really about power.
by Mary Arrr March 9th, 2010 at 9:47 pmI’m just skimming here-wasn’t able to participate much since my earlier comment, but this has been a fascinating discussion-seriously.
The heroine in my latest book was probably not exactly the run of the mill, and I knew this-part of me has been waiting to see if anybody would hate her because of it…eh, yeah, I guess I was waiting for that. I don’t like the double standard but I’ve got to admit, it’s definitely there. I just try not to focus on it, I guess.
by Shiloh Walker March 9th, 2010 at 9:55 pmFinally arrived in Colorado. No way I can catch up with blogs, but this post interested me. I had early feedback on the beginning of a manuscript criticizing my heroine for not being assertive enough the first time she shows up.
My intent was that she has to grow from a “go with the flow, hide in the background” kind of woman (for legitimate reasons) to one who steps out to stand up for herself. This manifests itself by chatper 3, but I’m looking at the opening again. It’s about growth and change, right?
by Terry Odell March 10th, 2010 at 10:28 am[...] Rocki’s post on Tuesday asking if there was a double-standard in romance elicited a groundswell of responses from MSW readers. Some of the comments were particularly noteworthy, so I’d suggest if you haven’t read the blog you do so. [...]
by Strong Heroines | Murder She Writes March 11th, 2010 at 6:02 amMy favorite heroines are ones who are more complicated than their heroes, but I’ve heard a few authors say that those books don’t do as well as their hero-centric ones.
by Sylvia Day March 11th, 2010 at 10:15 amVery interesting post. So sorry I missed it on tuesday.
by Emmanuelle March 11th, 2010 at 5:43 pmI guess I’m definitely one of those biased romance reader who tend to forgive their hero ANYTHING, or at least almost anything. I’m much more difficult with heroine. I want them strong, inteligent, funny when needs be, and I can’t tolerate follishness whereas for my heores… what would be a man without a serious dose of foolishness ???
[...] Is There a Double Standard in Romance? [...]
by Tortured heroines… « Trivial Pursuits March 15th, 2010 at 12:02 am