 | 21 Aug 08 |
It is very rare that an article has such an impact on me that it stays with me for more than a few minutes, much less the entire day, but when I read this yesterday, I sat for a long time as a maelstrom of emotions, thoughts and feelings swirled around inside of my head, heart and soul. Please cut and paste or click on the link below, read it, then come back here and tell me what your gut reaction was to this article, and we’ll start a conversation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/fashion/02love.html?_r=1&emc=eta1&oref=slogin
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Ooh. I SO feel her, except I learned those lessons at a much younger age and as a result stayed far far away from sororities (except in a college class where I was part of a “team” with a sister and two other girls who may as well have been). And I’m glad to have two boys, never felt the desire to have a girl… though I know I’ll have to contribute to their own lessons about girls!
But… as an adult, I found I formed my close female friendships before I formed close male friendships. It was as if I had to get through a certain degree of female maturity before I could truly be friends with men. My best girlfriends are women who, like me, get along better with men, but they are also very feminine, and I’ve learned a lot from them. Without, of course, all the crappy social baggage. They made me more comfortable in my own skin, so that when the opportunity to be good friends with guys came along? I feel much more confident in my ability to BE a good friend to anyone, guy or girl. I am blessed.
by Christa M. Miller August 22nd, 2008 at 4:23 amThe person I trust most is my husband. Most men I know just don’t think the same way the women in this article do. Stuff like that just doesn’t occur to them.
It’s really nice.
I’ve had extremely emotional friendships with a handful of women over the years, and frankly, ever since my best friend Lynn “broke up” with me when I was nine, they all ended badly. Sometimes after a decade of “true” friendship! I’m sure I had something to do with it, the happy beta dog to their alpha. But it’s made me wary. I have female friends, but find myself keeping them at arm’s length. It’s instinctive.
It has to do with trust.
I can see why marriage works. A good one (and yes, there are plenty of horror stories) is a warm safe place to be with a companion who doesn’t feel the need to judge you, or compare himself to you. You can be best friends and have each other’s back without all this other stuff going on. Being wired differently helps.
I have actually been in a room where there were a lot of women (usually they’re well-coiffed and of the Texas variety, very very female) and I just have to get out of there. It’s like there’s too much estrogen and it’s bouncing off the walls like a pinball. I know it’s not these ladies’s fault. One on one, I’m sure they are wonderful people. But as a group, it’s too much for me. Probably I can lay it at the door of the ten-year-old chum who dumped me all those years ago and put that doubt in my mind.
Oh, and those other four bitches, who shall remain nameless.
by J. Carson Black August 22nd, 2008 at 5:24 amHow sad. Not just that those things happened to her, but that even all those years later, she felt the need to cower before that clueless bitch.
Like Christa, I learned the lessons about cliques much earlier than Kelly, and what I learned was to stay the hell away from them. My daughter learned the lesson, too. (Although if I could have spared her all that, I would’ve.) Whenever I hear about this, I’m reminded of the same thing. When I was a child, my family raised chickens. Most of the chickens were black, except for one that had red feathers on its head (like a red-headed woman, which is why we named her Lucy). We kids paid more attention to Lucy because she was special and different. As a result, the other chickens attacked her and pecked all the red feathers off her head. After that we left Lucy alone (even after her feathers grew back) – because we realized what happened and that it would happen again if we continued to single her out as special.
I guess the point I tried to leave with my daughter (who I’ve always raised to be her own special self) was to steer clear of the flock mentality.
by B.E. Sanderson August 22nd, 2008 at 5:43 amKarin, thanks for sharing that deeply moving article. I just wanted to hug that woman, and tell her how very special she is. I’ve run into fakes a time or two, and it makes me grateful I choose friends wisely. I don’t require approval these days. It’s just sad that hurts can linger so long, like that woman, and still affect her to this day. People come in and out of our lives daily, that’s a fact. But, we can choose who we wish to stay. I’ve learned some lessons along the way, thank goodness. Like you, I believe what goes around comes around. I wouldn’t want to be those gals when the Karma is doled out. Mean people are insecure imo, and they want to bring someone down. It makes them feel better and it’s sick.
by LaDonna August 22nd, 2008 at 5:46 amOuch, and I thought that particular wound had healed! All my buried feelings have managed to get brought to a head, and I must pop it to relieve the pain.
by Margaret A. Golla August 22nd, 2008 at 6:01 amMy experiences didn’t even come close to that woman’s and it still hurts like hell when I think about it. I’ve tried to form relationships with women. One on one is about the extent of it and even then the relationships are not what I would call close. Over the years, I’ve tried to belong–I just don’t. I don’t play well with other women. I don’t do the girl thang at all: shopping, gossiping, chick-flicks, etc. I’m far too blunt and, in general, women tend to read more into what I’m saying than taking it at face value. But I have to admit that I’m the stupid one here, considering I keep trying to fit in, and I fail again and again.
I’m with J. Carson. My hubby is my best friend. He understands me and, for me, that is all that matters.
Margaret
Margaret
When I first entered into my chosen career, for the first time, I ran into a clique of females like nothing I every experienced in my life. They were much like the sorority sisters in the article. I was somewhat naive, even for my age. When I went into the real work world after my divorce, I was stunned by the behavior and attitudes of the other women. Who I assumed would be my friends, because after all we worked in a man’s world. Much like the sorority we were sisters, in a common cause. I thought. Much of what I experience, minus the rape and drunken sex, to be honest, there were a lot of wild parties, where that kind of stuff went on, video taping each other having sex, etc. Just hearing about it, caused me run the other way without looking back. I didn’t want to be a part of anyones video. Because of that, I was treated differently, harassed and talked about in those silent whispers. When I started dating a supervisor, that’s when all hell broke loose and things really got bad. Because of all the rumors and the cliques behavior, it put too much stress on the relationship and it failed.
by Lee August 22nd, 2008 at 6:36 amSince my experiences, I’m very careful with my friendships. I watch, listen, wait and choose carefully. I don’t trust easily, which has caused me to back away from people. The friends, who I allow in my life, are very dear.
Sadly, I’ve heard more about this type of behavior produced by women. When my daughter went to college I discouraged her from joining a sorority, she tried, but was turned down because I was a single parent and a cop. It taught her a valuable lesson, and I didn’t worry so much about her in the college setting.
Why do young girls do this to each other? It is hard enough growing up without enduring the chastising of girls who think they are better than you. We couldn’t afford nice things (my dad was and is an alcholic), so I was made fun of because I didn’t have the expensive clothes, jewelry, etc.
Thus I shyed away from female contact, except for the few who where in the same boat as I. Now that I am older, I don’t really give a crap what people think of me as long as I like who I am (life lesson).
Unfortunetly, this kind of thing will go on till the end of time and there is no way to prepare a young girl, mentally, for this kind of mental abuse. We just all do what we can to deal.
by Mary August 22nd, 2008 at 6:40 amThe article isn’t at all shocking. It’s exactly the kind of behaviors I’ve seen and experienced and now expect.
by Nadia August 22nd, 2008 at 6:45 amWow, as I read this I felt sorry for the women and thought she needs therapy. Now I’m shocked to see so many women have had the same experience. I haven’t, but maybe it’s my personality. I do kind of hold back until I’m sure of people and know their quality. Although we never really know.
Big hugs to everyone going through experiences like that.
by Edie August 22nd, 2008 at 7:07 amI am beyond horrified.
I did the sorority thing briefly in college–pledging only because I have a terrible addiction to formalwear and if you’re not Greek or dating a Greek, there are no formals to attend. My sorority were the outcasts of the Panhellenic Circle at our school, but there was still some of the cliquishness and screwed up priorities. I was in school to get an education–and I was on scholarship to do so. For other reasons, my sorority closed after my first year, which saved me the trouble of de-pledging. I probably only missed similar experiences to the article author because I tended to avoid all but the most mandatory sorority functions. That may be the only reason I still have several close women friends. I’m more anti-big groups PERIOD. I like people in twos and threes at the most. Seems more real and intimate that way.
by Kathleen August 22nd, 2008 at 7:43 amI was part of a very close female group and had a very harsh betrayal. I think the whispers behind my back were the most painful.
by Jennifer McKenzie August 22nd, 2008 at 8:24 amBut the thing is that not every woman in that group participated in that crap. Some of them came to me and helped me. The part that rankled was I never knew who participated and who didn’t. I couldn’t trust the group and so I left.
This story is much much worse. Not all women are like this. But I have been much more cautious in my friendships.
I feel an incredible sadness. She is a victim, has been a victim, and will always be a victim. I’m with Edie, she needs a lot of counseling. Am I talking out of hat? I don’t think so, I have been raped twice; my mother taught me to be a survivor.
End of story.
Sort of. Does that mean I forgive him(s)? Yes, I do. Does it mean I’ve forgotten? No I’ve not, but I’ve used it as a learning and building tool. I’ve armed myself and moved forward. And I spent a lot of time in the past talking about it, I’ve used my experiences to help other women through their experiences.
How close the transgressions and fears of my second rape are to me, years after I thought “I was over it”, was brought home at my 20th class reunion, when the guy who raped me walked into the reunion (married to a classmate.) After shaking myself to pieces, I threw back a quick glass of wine like it was a tequila shot sans lemon wedge, bolted from the reception, and drove back to my hotel room. I now realize that while I am over it, he still terrifies me. But his actions do not rule me nor my world today.
This woman needs therapy and she needs it badly. Strangely she never in her article calls it what it is…rape. A lawyer, and she never calls it rape. She holds all of the trickle down results to her like a mantle, it has molded her life, made her what she is today. It has become her repelling armor, when she thinks she has buried it inside a box in the dark pit of her. But the reality is she owns guilt where none is not hers to own. I’m probably coming across very unsympathetic, that isfar from the truth, I am angry for her. What I see here is a tragedy that has been allowed to fester for more than twenty years. I see a woman who needs help dealing, needs help recovering, needs help surviving. She needs help and is waiting for someone to give it to her, but sadly she’s not seeking help.
by Cele August 22nd, 2008 at 8:35 amThere were no wild parties and sex, but I felt the same sort of cliqueishness and bitchiness from many of the girls in my high school. So much so that I only made friends with guys all through college and my first jobs. Then my 10-year reunion came up. I only went because I was meeting the one or two girls from high school that I did like.
But you know what? *Everyone* was friendly and sweet and happy I came. It’s a small town, so we ran into people all weekend long, not just at the reunion dinner and picnics. We all talked about the good times and the bad were forgotten.
I think the unpleasantness was just a matter of everyone needing to grow up a little.
by Poppy August 22nd, 2008 at 9:26 amI don’t know if anybody watches “The New Adventures of Old Christine,” but every woman I know would immediately recognize the two blonde “in” mothers whose children go to Christine’s son’s school. It really is a treat to watch them—they are universal characters.
Anyone can be cruel. But it does seem to me that some women have refined cruelty to an art. Cliques, bullying, and ostracizing are a regular part of just about any girl’s coming-out party.
Maybe it’s because traditionally, women have had less power, and had to use what weapons they had at hand.
by J. Carson Black August 22nd, 2008 at 9:34 amJCB, no one “has to” use weapons. I think it’s simply that shit rolls downhill. My mother didn’t “have to” use those weapons against me when she felt subjugated by her mother or my father or anyone else, but like LaDonna said, it made her feel better… for those few minutes at a time, at least. For me personally, if someone craps on me now, I make an extra effort to do something nice for someone else. And it’s hard! But that’s my choice. There’s enough crap in the world without adding to it.
Cele, just because Kelly doesn’t say she sought therapy doesn’t mean she didn’t. I did many times over the years, but you know, I never could find a therapist who I felt really cared about helping me. My husband basically became my therapist. He was invested in helping me mature. I do agree with you that it is sad that Kelly can’t call her rape a rape. I still catch myself hesitating to use the word “abuse” to describe aspects of my upbringing, but it was… not as bad as some, certainly, but with similar effects.
Poppy, I avoided my high school reunion (10 years) and found out later that all the “in” girls were there and still talking smack about everyone else. I was SO glad I hadn’t shelled out money to attend! I stayed home and watched “Grosse Pointe Blank” instead – much better reunion!!
You know, as far as shit rolling downhill, I was thinking: men have their own little cliques too. My husband was in a fantasy baseball league last year that included about half a dozen guys from one company. They ignored all requests for trades and even social emails from my husband and his friends–who had been running this league for years–and basically acted like a bunch of catty bitches. So my husband and his friends abandoned that league and started a new one this year. Guess that’s the difference–they took action instead of taking the bitchiness to a higher level….
by Christa M. Miller August 22nd, 2008 at 9:47 amLadies, I’m just logging on for the first time today. Let me catch up!
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 10:32 amFor me, the most shocking part of the article was not how terrible women can be to women, I’m more appalled that while the women did behave badly, very badly, the bulk of the anger was not directed toward the rapist and the men who set up, produced and directed the ledge parties! A crime was committed! What crime did the women commit? Felony being a bitch? Sorry, they were an aftermath of a terrible, terrible crime against a young, naive woman who just wanted to fit in. I blame the rapist and his cohorts the most, and just knowing these types of individuals exist in our so called ‘polite’ society sickens me.
They took her innocence and changed her life forever. For had the rape not occurred, the fall out that ensued never would have, at least not to that level. Because reading between the lines I get the feeling that the sorority didn’t really want her in the first place. They were a bunch of mean girls looking for some fresh meat. Well, after the vultures had their fill, the harpies got to her and finished her off. How they sleep at night is beyond me.
It was a man and his cronies who committed a crime against a women, and once again, it was a group of insecure backbiting bitches who because of how they didn’t want to be tarnished themselves in the eyes of those same creeps, went ahead and ate one of their own.
Yesterday, I sat there is shock, today I’m spitting mad. I asked hubby if he read the article and he said, yes, then told me about a piece of shit he used to work with and what that guy’s fraternity did to and with overweight girls. And the pig boasted about it even years after he graduated college. Sometimes I hate men. Nasty females? I know what drives them: sadness, their own pain, insecurity and oh, damage by a man. Men? Some of them are animals, and the damage they do lasts a lifetime.
Cele, I don’t know if she has gotten therapy, but I think she certainly needs it. My heart goes out to her.
There is a survey at the end of the article. It’s quite detailed and takes a bit of time to answer, but she is using the info for her book about this horrible time in her life and the aftermath. I did it yesterday and asked my daughter who is getting married when we were out and about doing wedding stuff: “Do you like females and do you enjoy your female friendships?” She had no hesitation in her answer, “I love my girlfriends!”
Well, we spent the rest of the afternoon chatting all about our gf’s, the good the bad and the not so nice ones we no longer hang out with. I also learned that my daughter is quite the little beotch herself when it comes to her girls being victimized by other females or males for that matter. Let me just say she has been ‘hands on’ in a few situations when she has taken it upon herself to be the champion for a female friend who has been unable or unwilling to stand up for herself. She made me proud.
and you know what? the women I have met here make me proud. there have been a few frogs along the way, but for the most part we have a strong, supportive, regular group, I love being here every Friday with you ladies, and I hope you all feel safe here.
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 11:42 amnever fear, I will protect you from any flamers who dare to venture here! or my daughter will!
Karin, the irony of your outrage is that more than 100 college presidents recently signed a petition for the Amethyst Initiative – to lower the drinking age back to 18. As a local editorial pointed out, this would simply drive the problem off the campuses, where of-age kids would get drunk wherever it was easiest to do so, and absolve the colleges of any responsibility (or liability) in the matter.
I wonder if it’s hard to get outraged over this crime because it happens constantly, and everyone, including victims, blows it off. My cousin was raped under similar circumstances, as was a friend of mine in college. They reported it, but neither pressed criminal charges – it was all likewise swept under the rug. My feeling is that unless and until campuses address the WHOLE problem – binge drinking, the “rite of passage” of college parties, “kids will be kids” and like attitudes – this will continue to happen.
by Christa M. Miller August 22nd, 2008 at 12:05 pmChrista said, “My feeling is that unless and until campuses address the WHOLE problem – binge drinking, the “rite of passage” of college parties, “kids will be kids” and like attitudes – this will continue to happen.”
I agree 100%! It’s funny really, how much it all boils down to dollars and sense and those in power wanting to keep the status quo. Fear on both sides leads to paralysis. Whatever happened to being held accountable? In a perfect world I guess that basic dogma would apply.
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 12:09 pmChrista, sadly therapist often seem too well equipped with apathy, I’m sure they care, but if you’ve never been there you’ve no idea. Having said that, I’ve been there. I can’t fix you– I can’t make it right, only you can find your comfortable place, but what I can be is a friend and listen. If you ever need someone to listen, someone as a sounding board, or some one to just rant at, I’m available and easy to find.
Cele@celbrindal.com
Calista
by Cele August 22nd, 2008 at 1:27 pmI’ll go back and finish reading responses in a minute, but WOW how sad. One of my favorite quotes is, “The best revenge is to live well.” I don’t know who said it. But I fall in with Margaret and Jake. I’ve never been pretty, I’ve never been popular, Im just lucky smart and pretty shy (swear it’s true).
I figure I was born this way and I’ll probably die this way and that’s okay because I’d rather be a wolf than a sheep.
Funny one of the first things that came to mind was RWA. Not sure what that says either.
by Ames August 22nd, 2008 at 4:49 pmI think it’s incredibly sad on so many levels. If I were having a conversation with this woman, and she told me this story like she did in the article, my question would be. “Why give those women this much power in your life?”
But then, it also looks to me like she is trying to do that with her story…
We all survive these things to the best of our ability.
by Jen August 22nd, 2008 at 5:23 pmAmes, just wanted ya to know when I met ya last year I thought you were amazing! Pretty and so fun to be around. I had such a great time with all of you.
by LaDonna August 22nd, 2008 at 5:39 pmCele,you are a good person. I’ve known it from the very start and you continue to amaze me.
Ames! What LaD said! I missed you this year!!!!!
Jen, I too scratched my head and wondered why she gave those women the power to do what they did, but sigh, I have been thinking about this all day, and it’s easy for me to think that because I have not walked a mile in her shoes. So in that, I feel sheepish about thinking why on earth did she give them the power to tear her up and spit her out. I mean I was incredulous about it! I felt bad, and still do, because I don’t know what brought her to that point.
You said it, when you said, “We all survive these things to the best of our ability.”
I have no idea how I would have reacted or how I would have dealt with such a horrible experience first from the men, and then from my sisters who are supposed to be the nurturers of the two sexes. Why didn’t they take her and envelope her in love and support? Why did they cast her out? Why didn’t anyone stand up for this girl?
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 6:04 pmCele, you are a sweetheart!
Thank you so much for that offer. I think I’m all right. It took years of working through stuff to get to the point where I can let my parents’ crap roll off my back. That’s right – they still pull it, and it bothers me for a couple of days, but no longer than anyone else’s crap would. Having said that, I limit contact with them. That’s as much for my sons’ sake as for mine and my husband’s.
Karin, Kelly didn’t say much about her background, but it’s a LOT easier to accept bad treatment when you already think you “deserve” it, when you just haven’t experienced unconditional love. Whether you think it’s karma for earlier sins, or just that you’re a fundamentally bad person… it IS sad.
Saw a quote recently that said: “Be kind to everyone you meet, for everyone is fighting some kind of battle.” Or words to that effect. It doesn’t matter whether you’ve walked in anyone’s shoes… just that you show kindness. And even though it’s sad to not be able to show kindness to this woman? You posting it on the blog and having this dialogue with us is good!
by Christa M. Miller August 22nd, 2008 at 6:34 pm(((LaDonna and Karin)))
THanks and I missed ya’ll this year too. It’s funny, I know a lot of people through writing but I STILL tend to be pretty cautious.
Karin it’s almost like she was raped twice.
by Ames August 22nd, 2008 at 6:36 pmChrista more people need to understand how far a simple act of kindness can go.
Ames, you are absolutely right. Twice, physically and emotionally. I hope she finds peace soon.
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 9:30 pmAnd Ames? Why does RWA get such a bad rap? I know I’ve told the story of my first RWA meeting. And, well talk about being shunned and sent to the bck of the room! Hahaha, that’s a whole ‘nuther blog. Maybe next Friday? Would someone remind me??
by Karin August 22nd, 2008 at 9:45 pmKarin you totally need to tell that story. I’m not sure why RWA gets such a bad rap…maybe it’s the women thing again. Maybe it’s not RWA but romance writers in general? Not saying we’re all bad or mean or bitchy but I think there’s definitely a dichotomy in how published vs non-published, epublished vs print published, genre A vs genre B are (and were) treated.
by Ames August 23rd, 2008 at 5:17 amI couldn’t find the pole at the end.
by Jennifer McKenzie August 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 amI think I understand this woman’s position on the men. They admitted wrong doing. They said what happened was awful. The women implied, by their actions, that Kelly was a slut, dirty, and she “asked for it”.
It is always the betrayal of those CLOSE to you that last the longest. The men? They’re men. Women? They’re “one of us”. None of these women thought “what if that were me?”. I think, for me, I expect women to stand with me when something like this happens.
But too often, they don’t.
When my mom went to college, many years ago, sororities were nothing like they are today, and so she was actually a member of one. But of her four daughters, none of us joined a sorority because by the time we were at college, they were all about drinking, wild parties, and the out of control, horrible behavior that is described in the article we just read.
I feel so angry and saddened that this happened to her. I guess I lucked out growing up, because I was quite a tomboy for many years, and I never would have been accepted by the type of cliquish girls described in this article–nor would I have wanted to be. Even now, I can’t stand to be around such superficial, backbiting, bitchy women. And while I have never had quite the situation that she has had to deal with, I did experience a deep betrayal of another kind by both a man and a woman that I trusted, once. It took me a long time to get over it and heal, but a part of it will always stay with me because it’s not something you ever forget.
I hope that she has the courage to get the therapy and the help that she needs, as I eventually did. It really does help, if you can find a therapist that you can actually connect with.
by ALR August 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 amI understand, but am not shocked by the behavior of those women. I learned it my mother’s knee. She repeatedly betrayed what shoud have been a close relationship with cattiness. This was her insecurity.
by Chris Redding August 23rd, 2008 at 11:38 amTo this day I’m not a big fan of large groups of women. I do have my close friends, but it’s tough to get close to me.
I’m much more comfortable around men and work mostly with men.
And I am sad for this woman.
Ames, I think I have an inkling as to why RWA gets a bad rap: to begin with there are mass quantities of females involved, and females are more sensitive then the male of the species. So I think many times what was not an actual snub was interpreted as such. Not saying there isn’t intentional snubbing, there is, but, well, I think many women feel like they were disrespected, when in fact, they were just ignored because too many other people are too busy doing what they need to do for themselves. Some of it is miscommunication and other times it’s just a bunch of shy people whose shyness is misunderstood as snobbiness. When I joined my chapter years ago, I was not snubbed, I was ignored. The chapter did not have the wherewithal to get it that newbies needed to be welcomed and introduced and assimilated. Did that make the members bad? No, just unaware. It’s like manners, you either have them because you were trained, or you don’t. And I’m certainly not implying one cannot develop manners, but one must be aware of them and then seek the knowledge of them. Some may argue people should just know to be polite. I disagree. Talk to young adults today and listen to the garbage that comes out of their mouths. Okay, I am totally digressing here!
Jennifer, let me see if I can find the link.
ALR, I lucked out too growing up, and even into my adulthood, while I have been betrayed by those I thought were my friends, after the first painful bite I never took it personally. I mean, at that point, I no longer cared what that person thought of me. But, I have been fortunate that my instances have been your basic run of the mill run-ins with a few crazies. Nothing like what this woman experienced.
Chris I don’t care for large groups/crowds of women or men for that matter. Although I do love national. I love to people watch. But my local chapters? I’m very comfortable, and I’d like to think that so are my fellow chaptermates.
I am very sad for her too.
by Karin August 24th, 2008 at 8:59 pmI probably feel the same way. I have never been completely at ease with female friends. Even at the age of 16 I hung around with all males. I had so many “brothers”. I have found that I have never been able to trust other women with the exception of my mother and sister. I am 49 and to this day I have few female friends. The ones I have are more mothers of my childrens friends rather than my own friends. I have to admit that I miss having companionship outside my family. I have four children but they are all getting older and do not need my as much now. I find myself alone more and more. I never went to college per se. I attended online college. So I do not know much about soriorities. But I have always had the idea that they were just like they are portrayed on television. Maybe they are not that bad but I just do not know. I do know that I have never really been close to many females in my life. Men seem to be easier to relate to or understand. Most of them are not sneaky and underhanded about what they feel and want unlike most women.
by katherine August 26th, 2008 at 6:36 pm